The Get Healthy Tampa Bay Podcast

E105: Making Consistency the Key to Your Health Journey with EC Synkowski

• Kerry Reller

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Welcome to the Get Healthy Tampa Bay Podcast with Dr. Kerry Reller! This week, I’m joined by EC Synkowski, a certified nutrition specialist, licensed dietitian nutritionist, and founder of Optimize Me Nutrition. In this episode, we dive into the world of nutrition science, breaking down complex ideas into simple, actionable steps that can transform your health. EC introduces the groundbreaking 800 Gram Challenge, a sustainable and flexible approach to improving your diet by focusing on fruits and vegetables. We also discuss the psychology of dieting, debunk myths like the fear of fruit sugar, and explore how consistency—not perfection—is the key to lasting success. Whether you’re a nutrition newbie or a seasoned wellness enthusiast, this episode is full of practical advice and empowering tips to help you optimize your health journey!

EC Synkowski runs OptimizeMe Nutrition, a company dedicated to making nutrition easy through B2B/B2C digital education products and corporate wellness programs. The mission of OptimizeMe Nutrition is to provide solutions for anyone to improve their weight, health, and overall wellbeing through sustainable diet methods. Thousands have used her #800gChallenge®, a diet free of restrictive rules, to eat healthily and have reported weight loss, increased energy, improved performance and more!

She has extensive education in the life sciences with a BS in biochemical engineering, a first MS in environmental sciences (with a focus in genetics), second MS in Nutrition & Functional Medicine, and is a Certified Nutrition Specialist® and Licensed Dietician Nutritionist. EC has also trained others for 20 years and holds the Certified CrossFit Level 4 Coach (CF-L4) credential. She worked as a Program Manager for CrossFit authoring their course and certification materials. She has accumulated more than 600 hours of public speaking teaching fitness and nutrition all over the world and has a popular weekly podcast called The Consistency Project.

With more than 20 years of experience and academic training, EC seamlessly translates the evidence-based scientific data into practical solutions for everyday success.

00:28 - Welcome to the Podcast with Dr. Kerry Reller
01:25 - EC Synkowski's Journey from Engineering to Nutrition
04:28 - The 800 Gram Challenge: A Simple Yet Powerful Approach
07:31 - Surprising Benefits of the 800 Gram Challenge
11:12 - Demystifying Calorie Quantity and Weight Loss
15:57 - Fruit Myths Debunked: Sugar, Fiber, and Satiety
20:09 - Building Healthy Habits: Start Simple, Stay Consistent
28:46 - Lazy Macros: Combining Protein and Fruits/Veggies
34:10 - Overcoming Mental Hurdles in Nutrition
41:50 - Technology and Nutrition: The Role of Apps and Trackers
47:15 - Final Advice: Consistency Over Perfection

Connect with EC
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/optimizemenutrition
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/optimizemenutrition/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/ @OptimizeMeNutrition  
Website: https://optimizemenutrition.com/

Connect with Dr. Kerry Reller
Podcast website: https://gethealthytbpodcast.buzzsprou... 
My linktree: linktr.ee/kerryrellermd
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kerryrellermd/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ClearwaterFamilyMedicine
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clearwaterfamilymedicine/
Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kerryrellermd
Clearwater Family Medicine and Allergy website: https://sites.google.com/view/clearwa...
Podcast: https://gethealthytbpodcast.buzzsprou...

Subscribe to the Get Healthy Tampa Bay Podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, Stitcher, Google Podcasts, Pandora.

Kerry:

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Get Healthy Tampa Bay podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Kerry Reller. And today we have a very special guest EC Synkowski. Welcome to the podcast.

EC:

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on.

Kerry:

Yeah so EC Senkowsky is the founder of Optimize Me Nutrition. You've got a mission to make nutrition easy. She's helped thousands to improve their weight, energy performance, and overall well being using sustainable and science backed methods. I think that's one big reason why I'm drawn to you. But over 20 years of academic training and experience, she holds a BS in biochemical engineering, two master's degrees in environmental sciences and nutrition, and Functional medicine. You're a certified nutrition specialist, licensed dietitian nutritionist, and a certified CrossFit level four coach and former CrossFit program manager teaching fitness and nutrition to audiences worldwide, which is very impressive. I hope I did a good job introducing you.

EC:

Yeah. Wow. Thank you so much for that. You got the highlights. Yeah.

Kerry:

I'm super excited to have you on here and kind of pick your brain, if you will, of all your expert in nutrition and everything else. And really hear about how you got started and in your background to open and create optimize me nutrition. So can you tell us a little bit about how you got from engineering to nutrition and fitness?

EC:

yeah, yeah, that, that we might not have a total amount of time for, the needed amount of time for I sometimes joke around that my resume looks more like a Jackson Pollock painting than any sort of linear progression, but Yeah, I mean, it's interesting with nutrition, I think a lot of people have these stories, not stories, experiences, transformation in their lives that led them to a career in nutrition, and I actually didn't have any of that, so I often wonder why the heck am I doing nutrition I do think that it provides for me a perspective that allows me to not get pulled down rabbit holes and get very dogmatic about certain diets because I never had a transformational approach. So it was always less like, well, how do all these different diets work for different people? Like what are the underlying concepts that allow people to have success? And so that's become my main mission. That wasn't really your question, but I just find it interesting because people are always wondering like, kind of what was the spark for nutrition? I was like, I don't really know. But I was working for CrossFit for a long period of time after engineering, and the base of what they do, they really do have a big nutritional component to their program. And so it always sort of interested me and I actually had to start doing continuing education for my job at CrossFit. And I just happened to, like, well, I like nutrition, I do nutrition for CrossFit a little bit. Let me just jump into this master's program. And then of course that was like super interesting and then it took me in this direction. So a little bit not super planned out, but I will say there is some themes kind of among my background that I really like making the complex simple. I think that's what I really enjoy the challenge of. So of course I have that in spades with nutrition.

Kerry:

no, I think that makes sense. And I think with your, you know, background in like science and engineering, I think this, the whole like research and nutrition and weight and everything is just such a blooming field with all these new studies that it kind of makes sense that with your background and being experienced. You know, working for them to get interested in that, especially when you had to do see me so I can totally see why I kind of sucked you in, even if you didn't have some transformational experience, and I think is nice is that I think people can really establish rapport and get drawn into, I don't know what we call their provider coach, whatever you want to call it that has had a, you know, experience, but I think, you know, when you have like all these tools of really experiencing all the different approaches to, health, wellness, weight, nutrition, then you can like see, you know, all the sides rather than, okay, this works for me. We're doing this,

EC:

exactly. Exactly. And actually somebody I was interviewed or they were interviewing me for a podcast. They were the ones who kind of pointed it out. I mean, they were sort of like, well, don't you think that's what gave you this sort of idea to approach nutrition in this sort of way that wasn't just like, everybody has to do paleo. So I was like, Oh yeah, that's a great point. Thank you.

Kerry:

Yeah, there's so many different approaches to it. Not everything is going to work for everyone.

EC:

Exactly. Exactly.

Kerry:

absolutely. So one thing that you do you know, promote and have created, and I don't know, I know partially of the origin. So I want you to tell the listeners, but you know, what is this 800 gram challenge that you speak of? It's, you know, seems simple, but it's very powerful. So how'd you come up with it? What's it based on? And what's the most surprising feedback that you've received about

EC:

Yeah. Yeah. So it was actually during I was finishing up my master's and I don't know what the research project was, but I came across a study that was looking at fruit and vegetable consumption relative to health outcomes. So they were thinking, Okay, how many fruits and vegetables do people eat? And then what happens to them in terms of death and disease? Now, interestingly, at the time, I don't remember why the school requirement was there, but on my own time, because I was interested in nutrition, I was playing with different diet ideas of like how to measure quality in the diet. Meaning like when somebody says they eat clean, what does that really mean? And can we measure it versus just counting calories or macros or something? And I was actually playing around with this idea of measuring potassium in my diet, because it's. high in fruits and veggies and all that stuff. So that was kind of my backdrop. And then with school, I was researching something about fruit and vegetable consumption, came across this study. And what they found was that the risk of cardiovascular disease, cancer, stroke, and all causes of dying went down when people hit that 800 gram number. So the fact that I had sort of this brain, side project going about measuring quality and then stumbled into this study. I was like, Oh, this is really interesting. What about if I try to eat 800 grams of fruits and vegetables each day in my diet with no other rules and restrictions and sort of just see what happens? And so that was summer of 2017, and I played around with it for 6 months because, you know, you, you, If you've ever been in the nutrition space, you want to make sure that you understand what the rules are going to be, how it plays out for people, what counts and not. And so I played around with it to understand macros and calories and all of this stuff, and then officially launched it, I guess you could say January 2018. And so yeah, it's really having people focus on adding this healthy dose, 800 grams worth of fruits and vegetables to their diet each day, and then they don't have to eliminate other things. They still eat their protein foods, they still eat their fun foods, as I like to say, and it's a really It's interesting, I think when you said what are the most kind of surprising responses to it, I knew when I was putting it out there that it didn't have restrictions. But I wasn't expecting how positive a response that would be. That it really flips the script on dieting, right? When most of the time you think about going on this new diet, the first thing everybody thinks about is, okay, I can't have X, Y, and Z food, right? So this is, that takes it off the table. It's like, no, no, you can still have X, Y, and Z food. But you have to add these fruits and veggies, right? So that's been super surprising. And I would also say the, early wins of the 800 gram challenge, while it certainly can help with weight loss and health markers and blah, blah, blah is a lot of people report more energy. And for my CrossFitters they're going to be reporting a little bit more like, wow, my workout times are getting better and my recovery is getting better. But a lot of people will also just talk, hey, more energy throughout the day, which is not surprising given the fact that it will probably increase micronutrient density for most people in their diet.

Kerry:

Yeah, I think it's such a great concept that you add things back in nutritionally rather than taking things away. And I know there's all sorts of restrictive patterns of eating and things like that. And I do. I don't think you're the only, you know, dietitian that tries to not worry about restricting and avoiding foods and things like that, because it can lead to other things, which I'm sure you know how to experience with, with like eating disorders. But I think it's really powerful, right? bringing back in the fruits and veggies. I haven't, you know, tried to weigh anything, but I did earlier in the podcast. So I was making an omelet. And I'm like, Oh, I'm putting spaghetti, squash and spinach in the sink. Let's see how much I'm actually throwing in here. And I was really curious because I don't know what the heck, 800 grams of food. I'm really thinking ounces, right? So I don't really know what 800 grams of vegetables and fruits really is. And I did put avocado and I didn't know if that counted in that, or if that was in a different class. It is part of the 800.

EC:

Yeah, so, when I say fruits and vegetables, it's probably a broader category than what people classically think of fruits and vegetables. I allow things like potatoes, so long as they aren't commercially fried. So if, you know, you bake a potato at home, or you oven roast a potato at home, or sweet potato, that all counts for the 800 gram challenge. Corn counts, corn kernels, not popcorn, but you know, corn on the cob minus the cob weight and the frozen corn, that counts. Olives count, avocado counts, all types of beans, lentils, and legume counts. A lot of what I let count for it is actually based on the caloric density. Meaning, For the weight of the food, there's not many calories in it, which is very opposite of what our classic modern diet looks like, has very high caloric density items. So when you eat things that are like pretzels and chips, they often have four or five calories per gram weight, where things like fruits and vegetables are less than one calorie. per gram weight. And so this is the magic of the 800 gram challenge is that people end up, they feel so full, they feel like they get to eat so much food, but they actually haven't eaten many calories. They've probably only eaten about 400 calories in an 800 gram challenge. So when you're getting back to your question about like, I didn't know how much it is, it's about six cups for my US centric measurement. It's about six cups per day of the fruits and vegetables of their choice. And so a great strategy for people is kind of think about as like two cups at each meal. We'll get you there. Yeah.

Kerry:

So I guess I didn't weigh the avocado, but I think what I had with this, like I put like, Some of the spaghetti squash in the omelet, but some of it on the plate. So I had like, like 212 grams, which I thought was pretty good, but then I added the avocado. So next time we'll have to weigh that too, but it was, it was just kind of fun to see. And I'm a big, you know, kind of volume eater. I like a big salad. I like a lot of veggies. So, I mean, something like that would be perfect for someone who likes that kind of stretch fullness as well. Right? So all these fruits and veggies are going to fill you up in that manner too. And

EC:

That's exactly, I mean, yeah, you're getting all these vitamins and minerals and fiber, which is wonderful. But that stretching of the stomach is one of the ways that we feel satisfied. I mean, of course, there's different satiety mechanisms, but that stretching of the stomach sends the signal via the vagus nerve to the brain, like, hey, I just ate something. And so this is why it's actually really interesting. In dieting, there's such a disconnect for people about fullness and how many calories they ate. Mm hmm. So this is where when people eat these snacks and crisps and desserts, they actually don't have to eat that much volume. Yet they've eaten so many more calories, and so then they might come on the Instagram challenge and be like, Oh, I'm eating so much, and it's like, you are in terms of volume, but not in terms of calories. So it's kind of a mental switch for them there, too.

Kerry:

Yeah, that definitely would make a big difference. So would you say like one, they had more energy. So the other thing would maybe more satisfied as well with what they're choosing to eat.

EC:

And this is how we can drive weight loss. You know, it's a non restrictive diet, so I can't guarantee weight loss, but there's this displacement effect that now, instead of filling up on the chips and the crackers, they're filling up on the fruits and veggies, and so the net difference is often a Yeah,

Kerry:

Yeah. I mean, obviously I you know, have been, you know, watching your podcast and following, and I know that you have these 10 principles of nutrition and you were kind of just speaking toward your first one there, I think with the calorie. Well, what is it? Why don't you tell our listeners? What is your first principle that I'm kind of referring to?

EC:

yeah. The quantity of food you eat in calories determines your weight, is principle one. And so I have these ten principles, and that's actually my main mission, message in nutrition, is having people understand the principles. It just turns out that's like kind of an unwieldy thing to try to teach people, like if you get in an elevator with somebody like, oh, what's a tip for nutrition? Like, well, let me tell you about 10 principles. And it's a bit much, it's a bit heavy, but it's really these underpinnings to help people kind of navigate their diet and, you know, understand nutrition from a physiological and psychological perspective. And one of the big ones is, is calories. Calories do control weight loss. That doesn't mean we only make food choices based on calories. That doesn't mean that it's not difficult to create a caloric deficit. It doesn't mean that genetics don't come into play. There's all these other factors, but ultimately end of the day, yeah, we need that caloric deficit to drive any fat loss.

Kerry:

Yeah, I think, well, I was gonna, you know, torture you with some questions of like, basically if you're in the elevator, no, I'm just kidding. But like,

EC:

Go for it.

Kerry:

Well, I had a, so there's so much noise around nutrition and fad diets and conflicting advice. So what's one myth that you hear all the time that you wish you could kind of erase from everybody's mind? I

EC:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, especially with the 800 gram challenge, I probably post about this at least quarterly on social media, but it's the idea that fruit has too much sugar. That has to go. That has to go. It's, it's so propo I mean, I can, I could talk on this for way too long, so I'm going to try to reel it in a little bit more, Kerry, but like, the reason why fruit doesn't have too much sugar is kind of what I was talking about, that caloric density. Yeah. Yeah. When you eat fruit, you're actually predominantly eating water. That's the primary co nutrient in, in fruits and vegetables, you're eating a lot of water. So, by the time you feel so full on mango or pineapple, you're actually full of a lot of water, you haven't had that much sugar. Conversely, when we have sugar in the form of cake, chips, cookies, soda, soda's the big one, we will get way higher of a dose of the sugar, and that's how we get all those extra calories. So the dose is so different because of the package that it comes in. If you were to do an entire 800 gram challenge of mixed fruit, it's only 400 calories. Six cups of pineapple, all these things that people are so scared of, blueberry, you know, whatever, apple it's only 400 calories. That's less calories than a single slice of lemon loaf at Starbucks.

Kerry:

don't know what that is, but

EC:

Yeah, it's just like one of those little bread, you know, bread breakfasts in the morning things. It's little like, you know, just a slice of bread or whatever. But the point is, it's like, we have this stuff all of the time in terms of that caloric dose, but yet people are gonna be afraid of fruit. And the other thing I'd like to point out, because, gosh, now you're gonna get me on the fruit tangent, but like, I also like to have people bring reality check to nutrition. Tell me where the fruit is. Anytime you go anywhere, you go into a drug store, you go into a gas station, you go to a home goods store, you go to a discount clothing store, you walk into the movies, you walk into the bank. It's never like these baskets of apples that are sitting around, it's always the grocery store checkout, what is it? It's not apples, it's not bananas. So if we're all overeating fruit to the detriment of our health, I always like to ask, where is it? Like, where is this stuff? We're not overeating fruit. We're not overeating fruit, and so people should be encouraged to eat more of it, a lot more of it.

Kerry:

Yeah. Oh, I definitely like that concept. And, you know, there was a study done at a hospital of all the, you know, doctors and nurses and everybody who goes to the cafeteria. And I think at the checkout line, they had, like, soda and stuff, and then they replaced it with water. And I think they also brought out the fruit and the consumption from everybody. Like, Greatly increased magically. And obviously the reduction of soda drinking did improve too. So you're right. It doesn't exist at all these places, but it also doesn't keep as much. So, you know, I think that's maybe part of it, but so what do you think about, you know, fruit juice? Because when I, and you mentioned soda already too, when I'm counseling patients who have something like non alcoholic fatty liver disease, now they're changing all the names of it. We focus on fructose a lot, right. And Fruit has fructose. That's what's sweetening it. And fructose in a different form can be, you know, not so good for the liver. So what is your comment on like the juices and that, how is that different than the fruit itself?

EC:

typically when people consume juices, they will still consume less sugar than let's say a traditional cola. You know, if you're doing orange juice versus Coke, we'll still typically get the higher dose in the Coke. But the thing why I actually don't allow juices for the 800 gram challenge, I allow homemade smoothies, but I don't allow juices. Primarily the distinction there is the removal of fiber, which of course helps us stay a little bit more full, helps keep things in the stomach a little bit longer. But the other thing that I don't even, I don't love about smoothies, but I let them because of the fiber, but I really don't allow it because for the juices, is, People forget that the whole chewing process is part of our satiety mechanism. So the fact that the juice does not have the chewing that slows us down, and also does not have the fiber, is not something that I allow in the Aethergram Challenge, and not something that I would really encourage somebody who has a health condition where they need to be cutting down quantity. I still think those people will probably be better off with juice than just saying any sort of thing, but generally I'm like, Hey, let's just go eat the orange. Let's just go eat the apple versus trying to take it in that form. You're just going to get the calories so much more quickly. There was a study and I'm going to get the numbers wrong, but they compared the sugar consumption in apple juice to eating apples. And it's something like five X higher or higher than that of just what you down so quickly without even realizing, because again, there's not that time to chew and process.

Kerry:

Yeah. I always try to, you know, stress that as well. You're kind of like ripping all the fiber out of the food. And that's also, like you said, that creates satiety, right? It makes you feel full in a different way. And then, I mean, the chewing mechanism is another, you know, more subtle. Psycho psychological part of, you know, eating and feeling full. But so if there are a lot of smoothies, do you make sure or recommend that they put some sort of protein in that or,

EC:

Yeah, I don't, I mean, you know, the Introgram challenge. Like, it's kind of what I consider almost step one. I have something called my three pillars method, which is basically we do three steps to get to kind of your full comprehensive diet plan. I don't think the 800 gram challenge answers everything. I like to think about it as a really shotgun approach for people to improve the quality and quantity in their diet. So they will increase their vitamins, minerals, and fiber, decrease on the calories and the macronutrients in a really simple way. Do I think protein's an important component of the diet? Yes, in fact, that's my step two. But I think what I see a lot in nutrition, and this is especially from the experience of working with people, is everybody tries to jump to, like, the end state or the perfect, and then they wonder why they can't stick to it. And it's like, well, because we don't have any foundational habits in place. So if they want to add protein to it because they like the taste, or that's just helps them feel full, or all the other things, that's fine enough. But for the 800 gram challenge, it really is just focusing on adding these fruits and veggies. trying to keep it super simple for people. Hey, let's get this habit in line. Let's see how far that takes us before we start trying to get more complicated. I actually just was, I did a couple talks in Scotland at a fitness event recently, and I had a woman come up to me. She's lost 20 pounds on the 800 gram challenge by itself. You know what I mean? And it's just like, let's see how far we can get with being really consistent on one really good habit before we're like, well, what about protein? And what about fat grams? And all of this other stuff, which admittedly we can get to, but that's a really long answer to say that like, no, I don't put rules around what their smoothie looks like because I mean, that's a part of the whole, I mean, I know you've actually got me going here, but the 800 gram challenge, like I purposely don't even tell them which fruits and veggies. I don't care if you have four apples one day and the next day is three bananas because you're traveling and that's what you could do. That's a fabulous day. I don't tell you it has to be half veggies and half fruits. No, no. You want it to be all fruit one day? Go for it. You want it to be all strawberries one day? Go for it. You want it to be all white potatoes? Go for it. Because the diets in our modern culture are so skewed so poorly that all of those things I just mentioned are incredible changes to their diet. That I want it to be simple, I want it to be freeing, I want it to be something that they can really establish some good habits in their lives. before I get too specific and exacting on other things.

Kerry:

I think you made a great, great point. The first thing is, you know, just doing one thing, adding one thing back in and getting that established before you move on to the next thing. Usually when I'm like counseling people, we do one thing, maybe a month and see how it's going. Right. I think, like you said, it's really a complicating thing is too much, too quickly is really just overwhelming and people give up, right?

EC:

Exactly. Exactly.

Kerry:

Speaking of habits and stuff, I know you like to review books. What about, have you read atomic habits?

EC:

I haven't, which is kind of embarrassing to say that because it's, I already know it's going to be good. I already know it's going to be good.

Kerry:

Yeah. It's good. It's easy. And I actually try to sometimes use some of those like ways of building habits and breaking habits and things like that in the, in the my,

EC:

Oh, cool.

Kerry:

my patients, but you should read that

EC:

I should. I know it's been on the to do to read list for too long.

Kerry:

And another point, cause you were talking about like simplification of things, and I know you did a recent podcast on good energy and all this is coming up with all these, you know, new fad things of how to live healthy, healthy and well. And I think. Those are all good. And I think you broke it down. Is that, you know, it's like, we got to do the foundational things first again. Right. And I think a lot of people who may read that book, maybe not be doing those foundational things and they're not going to get so, you know, so much out of it, but then I don't know, what is your, Brief intake on that since I brought it up. Maybe it would take like 10 podcasts

EC:

I know. I know. Get me ranting here. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the great things about that book, even though I didn't like it and don't recommend it, is the statistic that she really relies on throughout it is that only about 7 percent of Americans are metabolically healthy, according to the five metrics of, let's see, blood pressure, waist circumference, triglycerides, HDL cholesterol must be fasting glucose is the fifth one. So only 7 percent of Americans meet the normal ranges of those without medication. I think that alone should stop us in our tracks and say, well, that needs to then be the focus. We have these five validated metrics that nobody's meeting. So. She goes on to then explain we need 10 more metrics, and measure all this other stuff, and do all these other things, and it's like, no, you just almost missed your own point. It's like, there's such few people even meeting this foundational stuff. Why are we going to tack on all these other metrics, which they're all going to fail too? Let's go back to like, hey, these are the metrics that we can use and focus on because no one's meeting them. I think the other interesting point that you mentioned about like, hey, let's get the foundational stuff, is I think sometimes people think the foundational stuff is just good for the foundation. I am willing to say that once you do the foundational stuff, you also don't need anything else. That once you get all those five metrics in line, and once you do things like sleep regularly, exercise regularly, that's it. You're done. You don't actually need more optimization. You've actually already optimized. So the foundational stuff is not only foundational, it's also optimal. Ha ha ha ha ha. And no one's doing it. And no one's doing it. And so I think Good Energy has a lot of places in the book where they just put provide distractions from the foundations, which ultimately would be optimal for people's health.

Kerry:

Yeah. I mean, other than exciting things for some like new novel idea, like, you know, increasing your cold plunges or anything like that, it's hard to just implement the basics and obviously for the general population, that's definitely where we should be, you know, focusing on. I just, it was an interesting book. I did enjoy it, but yeah, I, for my patients, I wouldn't really be, you know, recommending that either. Yeah. But yeah, it is interesting. So tell me about for someone who's just starting to improve their eating habits, what's one practical step they can take to reduce processed foods, which I think you have kind of said is the universal diet problem.

EC:

Yeah. I mean, I'm going to stay on brand here and say they should do the 800 gram challenge. Now, I will say for people that You know, I came out of the CrossFit community with nutrition and there's a huge heavy whole food presence already in that community. So while a lot of people in the CrossFit community were not at 800 grams yet, it was, it's an easier sell in that community than, let's say, what I would say a more gen pop. community. So I would encourage people, yeah, 800 grams, I think is a great guideline. I think everybody can get there. The study that the number came from was looking at tens of hundreds of thousands of people. So there's lots of evidence that people around the world are doing these numbers anyway, but don't get defeated on like, okay, on day one, I'm changing my diet and I'm going to be 800 grams from here on out. Just start, just start. Maybe it's a banana at breakfast. Maybe it's an apple at lunch. Maybe you get to 400 grams. That's phenomenal. In fact, the WHO says that most people around the world are not even getting 400 grams a day. We just got to start somewhere, but started with the idea of, Hey, I'm going to add the fruits and veggies I like today, and I'm going to keep doing that habit. And some days I'm going to get closer to 800 and some days I'm not, and I'm just going to keep going. And over time, and it might be true months before you achieve something like an 800 gram number. And that doesn't mean the diet's perfect, but it probably means that you've increased the vitamins and minerals, but Fiber and decrease the calories and macronutrients in your diet to more around probably what they should be for a lot of people.

Kerry:

How do you normally deal with people who really say that they hate like vegetables or some fruits

EC:

Yeah, that is a common one. Well first there is the wide range. So just that alone that I'm not saying you have to eat kale I'm not saying that you have to eat broccoli Oftentimes we can get an inroad with some fruit Strawberries are typically a really great sell. Bananas, apples, there's typically something in that genre that we can start with. And that's great! Just have people get going there. Honestly, a lot of American diets, if they ate 800 grams of strawberries, they would be better off. Now that's an expensive diet, but it's like, just pick what you want. You like, you like oven roasted potatoes? That's also a really easy sell. Oven roasted sweet potatoes, oven roasted potatoes, any types of fruit. Like, don't have the person think they have to do this on spinach and broccoli. Maybe they'll get there, and guess what? You can also be healthy without them. So like, just having that range of different options I think helps people latch on to it a little bit more. Avocado, right? There's all these things that I think a lot of people like that they're not classically thinking of are going to count.

Kerry:

No, that's a really good point too. Yeah. It makes sense.

EC:

I guess I would also say, too, if they really hate veggies, once they're, like, kind of wrapping their mind around the idea roasted, I mean, roasted, it's basically candy.

Kerry:

think so too. My mom used to make broccoli with like boiled with lemon. It was atrocious. And I'm like, Oh my God, this is fantastic. You roast it. I'll oil, salt, pepper done.

EC:

Done! It's so good!

Kerry:

most things. It's, you know, delicious. I think, and my kids have even commented, like, you know, they like our, they will only eat mommy's vegetables or whatever. It makes me feel good because they don't say that about everything. But yeah, I think it's good. Roasted is definitely very good. And then everybody's using the air fryer, which is essentially similar. So. That helps. Yeah. So calories, macronutrients, how should people think about these concepts when it comes to like weight and body composition?

EC:

Yeah. Yeah. Calorie will definitely drive weight loss as we kind of mentioned and the only way to guarantee that you're creating a deficit is to count calories. The problem with that is it's a pain in the butt. It's really tedious to do. It's hard to do. It doesn't fit with our culture. And so this is why we have these hundreds of different diets out there that basically are trying to have us control quantity without calculating it. That's even true of the 800 gram challenge. So. Like, I like calories and that's actually the third step. So my three steps are we kind of focus on the fruits and veggies, then we focus on protein, then our third step is we focus on calories. But again, it's with this idea of like, we want to have the foundation of the diet be mostly whole foods with the fruits and veggies and the protein before we worry about calories. Because I think what people don't understand, like, okay, yes, I have to create a caloric deficit for weight loss. For this thing to be sustainable, I'm going to need a foundation of whole foods. If I try to do the caloric deficit that we see, you know, Instagram, whatever, mainstream media of, I'm just going to drink these three shakes a day. Yeah. You're going to lose weight in this month. You will. And then you're going to gain it right back. So how do we sustain the weight loss? Well, anytime you see somebody who sustains weight loss, it's a total lifestyle change. And guess what? They're eating mostly whole unprocessed foods. So I agree. I know that, oh gosh, some of my answers are so long here. Like, yes, calories are going to control weight. Yes. I think even looking at the macronutrients, like protein is going to help. Control body composition, but I don't really have people focus on quantifying that until we have the atrium gram challenge in place till we have some good habits around protein in place. And then we will take a look at calories if we keep needing to further refine the diet. Yeah. To then like, let's say they, maybe they've lost a little bit of weight on the first two steps, but they still want to lose another 10 pounds or whatever it is. Then yeah, we got to tighten up calories. And so here we go, but we're going to have those other steps in place so that the caloric deficit is sustainable.

Kerry:

Yeah. So I've heard you, you know, you mentioned 800 grams. So are they expected to weigh and measure all of those things forevermore? Because I find it very difficult, like we're saying, to get people to do these tracking and measuring and all those kinds of things.

EC:

Yeah it depends. Like, I think it's good for people to understand that there's trade offs in everything. Like, if you aren't where you want to be, and you have a goal to get somewhere, you're going to have to make your life a little bit more difficult. You're going to have to give something up to get what you want. There is this level of, like, at some point, you need to do something different, right? Now, that being said, with 800 gram challenge, I encourage them to just start with estimating. where basically a closed adult fist is about the size of a cup, and remember I said about six cups a day. Now, leafy salad greens are really light, so I encourage people, yeah, eat them, but don't be so worried about tracking the precise level of, like, how many leafy greens were in my side salad when I go out to eat. It's probably not that many, right? So really think about it as, like, six big cups or fists of, like, the pineapple or the potato or the banana or whatever it is, and that's going to get you really close, and you can do that without a scale. this is a great way for people that the, if the whole idea of weighing and measuring they're like, well, that's no, not happening. Great. We're just going to use a hand eye measurement. And people sometimes think that that won't be accurate enough. And it's like, give it a shot, give it a real shot, see what happens. I think you're going to be surprised that you actually can make some really positive changes without necessarily getting so accurate. And then later down the line, if you're then ready to get a little bit more accurate based on what's happening, then we can also make things a little bit more precise.

Kerry:

So how does lazy macros, one of your other favorite approaches fit into this?

EC:

Yeah, that's really step two. So they continue to do the fruit and veggie thing and now they're thinking, Okay, now I also am going to ready to focus on my protein consumption. And the number I put out there is 0. 7 grams of protein per pound of body weight. And that's typically going to be your current weight unless you're 20 pounds or more away from where you want to be. And then you're just going to use your target weight. So a lot of people, a lot of people, a lot of people are going to be around 100 to 125 grams of protein a day.

Kerry:

Okay.

EC:

And it's done in the same way as 800 gram challenge, and we're just focusing on adding that food to the diet. Now, of course, there should be this displacement effect, you're eating these fruits and veggies, you've got this protein, so we're keep reducing the chips, the cookies, the ice cream, and all of that stuff. But we're not saying you can't have any of it. We're saying, hey, get these fruits and veggies in the day, get this much protein in the day, that's really what I consider step two.

Kerry:

You said 0. 7 grams per pound of current weight. So how does that you're not using necessarily ideal body weight. So how is that translating to a lot of people who are focusing more on like 1 gram per pound of weight and the higher protein recommendations that we keep hearing.

EC:

Yeah they're crazy. Not the people, the people that are recommending the one gram per pound. Let me be clear. There's lots of highly credentialed individuals that I think are well overshooting people's protein needs. When you go to the literature and look at where does muscle mass get added onto people, even high level athletes, it's at the.7 grams per pound. Time and time again it's even at the 55 grams per pound, but 7 is kind of the upper limit. All right. Now I do think there will be some people at the one gram per pound. Let me tell you who they are. They're already lean. They're already high level athletes. They're already at an advanced level of strength training. That's not most people. I mean 77 percent of people do not meet the CDC guidelines for exercise. So the idea that everybody just walking around needs one gram per pound is like so above and beyond what is actually necessary for people and especially if people want weight loss. They should not be at one gram per pound. Because when you have to eat that level of protein, guess what? You're taking in more calories. And your protein's really for your lean mass. And so if you have weight to lose, and you're doing it based off of one gram per pound, what are you feeding? Like, you're just bringing in calories. You're not actually feeding the lean mass, right?

Kerry:

I think some of those are based like one gram per pound on ideal body weight. So, right. It's still, I feel

EC:

Oh, I see what you're

Kerry:

like 100 to one, the same thing. I feel like 100 grams is like just a good general goal. But sometimes, you know, that might be, I guess, lower if you're doing points. I mean, it makes more

EC:

I'm sorry. Yeah, no, I think I missed

Kerry:

No, I like your answer. I'm just, yeah.

EC:

no, no. I'm glad you pointed it out. You did say ideal. So basically what their goal weight would be, right? Yeah. And

Kerry:

It's still

EC:

even, even that though, because the studies that are done for protein intake there, there are obviously lots of studies, but there are a good number of studies that are just on like athletes who don't have any weight to lose. And when they cite their numbers, they're based on total current weight. you are right, it is more accurate to look at something like even lean mass or a target weight, especially if the person has weight to lose. But kind of a lot of the numbers that have been set and are studied are just based on current total weight. Because they're not always looking at like an obese or overweight population. So I like to cite it in that because that's where the evidence has been done. There's more that is reported on total weight than let's say an ideal or a lean mass weight.

Kerry:

Yeah. Well, I feel like we could belabor protein and all that for a real long time. So I probably will hop off to not hop off, but you ain't changing subjects. So we don't go onto that forever, but so psychology, I know you've mentioned this a few times, but it kind of plays a huge role into sticking with the plan. Right. And I know you've mentioned some things already while we've been talking, but what's your advice? For overcoming kind of the mental hurdles of dieting, if you will, if we're going to use that word.

EC:

I mean, if I had that answer, I'd probably have more money than Jeff Bezos, right? So that is, that is what makes nutrition really hard. If you can control the mind, we're done a lot. We're gonna make some progress for sure. You know, obviously there's ranges of psychology in nutrition. There's sometimes just having an extra handful of chips or too much dessert on Friday night into truly emotional eating that really needs help. And so obviously the latter needs to go to somebody and work on that. I will say that I think sometimes people I think a new diet is the answer when really dealing with the emotions is the answer, and depending on the severity of that, you're going to be better served working on that versus like, okay, I'm going to do macros or I'm going to do the 800 gram challenge. Like, that's just not going to do it. But assuming we're talking about people that might just be mindlessly snacking or just overeating on Friday nights sporadically and all of that stuff how do I help with that? There's a couple things that I think are useful for people. One is we have to keep foods in the diet that we love. So I think, again, with dieting, people think like, okay, well, I'm going to give up the chocolate cake. And it's like, well, no, if you like chocolate cake, we're keeping the chocolate cake. We're going to figure out how much chocolate cake you get, and it might be less chocolate cake than you would like, but we're going to keep the chocolate cake. So the first thing is understanding that your healthy diet, even at your goal weight, even losing weight, includes foods you love. We have to do that. That's a priority. The other thing that I try to help people with is really preaching the consistency over perfection. I think what happens is people will start a new diet, They get to day seven, they end up going off the diet, however they think that means in their mind, cheat day, whatever it is. And then they think, oh shoot, I blew the diet, so now it's just over. And then they go off the rails, and it's another few months before they gain the motivation to go back on the diet, or whatever it is, right? They need to view that hiccup on Saturday, or the cheat day on Saturday, as part of the process. We are not robots. You are going to mess up. I have days ahead of me that I will overeat and not have enough fruits and vegetables. So will you because we are human. And really what's so interesting is the damage that's done on that one day. I don't want to say it's nothing. But compared to the then the three months that you just spend off the diet because you have lack of motivation, that's the problem. The fact that you let it spin you out for a longer length of time than the one day is the problem. So the idea of taking the imperfect days and going, well, I was human and then the next day just getting right back to the plan is really the psychology that people need to have to be successful with nutrition. It's like, oh, okay, well, yeah, I overate. All right, we'll start again tomorrow

Kerry:

Right. Or just, you know, next meal, whatever. Yeah. And that instead of just throwing in the towel right away. I think that is very, very good point. I also like people to, you know, define, Hey, are you actually hungry when you're eating? Let's try to not be eating our emotions. Let's not eat because we're bored or the person next to us is eating, but really, you know, focus on when you're actually hungry. And sometimes you might eat, you know, because the person next to you is eating and whatever, and that's okay. But, you know, really try to focus in on that if it's hunger instead too.

EC:

And I think that's where the home environment really helps, right? Because if you don't have your, I mean, one of the things I've said before is if you binge it, don't buy it. Like. I say this all the time, but I do not buy the dark chocolate covered espresso beans from Trader Joe's. Because I do not need to eat a canister of dark chocolate covered espresso beans in one sitting. So, you know, if you're going to want to start working on these habits of just eating when you're bored, or stopping eating when you're bored, or stopping when you're eating when you're emotional, it's It really helps if your favorite food is not in the cabinet. certainly you can get in the car and go down the street and buy one, but you still have that time to sort of delay the response and get in there a little bit. Like, how can I change this behavior, right? How can I stop all this mindless eating and give myself some time to process the emotion or whatever else is going on?

Kerry:

So when you read Atomic Habits, you'll listen to the part or read the part that says like, setting up your environment, and obviously that is kind of what you're, you know, referring to, which is perfect.

EC:

Exactly.

Kerry:

Yeah. So I really like in your podcast and everything and what you do, but how do you take this incredible, like complex scientific concepts and make them digestible for everyone? What, what is your secret for making nutrition science accessible?

EC:

I don't know. I think I had some really great mentors and experience along the way. So my first job, I actually did environmental consulting work for expert, for an expert witness for environmental pollution. And we had some massive cases. There was a case where we had 1 million pages in a database that we had to, you know, be ready to defend in front of a jury trial. And that expert witness who I helped prepare was always had an amazing amount of clarity. He's like, every case comes down to three main points. And that's sort of as a guideline. But it's true. Like if you think about a jury trial, like how are we going to get all of this data into their heads of these non experts? How are they really going to know what's going on? They can't possibly know this to the depth that we know. So his big thing is like, we always have to come down to three things. So that was like a masterclass from the years that I worked there in terms of presenting information clearly and helping people really see like, what are the key issues? But I think in addition to that, working at CrossFit, the founder of CrossFit was always big on Yeah, science is interesting, but what's happening in real time? Like, what are the real effects that we're seeing? We can look at this different biomarker and this different metabolic pathway and blah, blah, blah, but if the person is getting more pull ups and back squat, that is the information that we need to drive how we program CrossFit or how we work with our athletes over what we think might be happening in real time. on kind of the mechanistic level. So I think the combination of having somebody so laser focused on simplicity and then having another mentor so focused on outcome, outcome, outcome versus getting lost in the weeds of the science has helped me I hope, make things really simple for people.

Kerry:

Yeah, no, I feel like that's a great way to approach it. It's very interesting. I know there's a lot of, you know, forward thinking about personalized medicine, and we can't really. You know, generalize everything. And I think that's like kind of an important concept as well.

EC:

Yeah, it's interesting, like, the phrase out there and I say it, so when I say this, I'm not criticizing people who say that, but it's like, you know, something works for everybody or nobody's going to have the same diet. It's like, kind of, kind of, like, turns out calories control weight loss for everybody. Turns out protein is going to help build lean mass for everybody. Turns out we all need the essential vitamins and minerals like vitamin E, vitamin K, blah, blah, blah, and on and on we go. There are some underlying truths. that nobody can get around. If you see somebody lose weight, they decrease their calories. Where it all becomes personalized, there's what were the foods and habits you put together to create that. Oh, you did it with more strawberries. I love kale. You know what I mean? Or like, you did it with resistance training. I love running. So that's what gets really personalized is how do all of the individual pieces come together to That ultimately we're driven by the same mechanism. And so it's like, I think that's where a lot of confusion is. People are like, Oh, I need to do this diet because it focuses more on veggies. And it's like, no, the person had that success because they liked those foods that helped them create a caloric deficit.

Kerry:

Yeah,

EC:

So that's where I think we get a little lost in the personalization. There are some truths that none of us can get away from yet. How we put the pieces together will be very personal.

Kerry:

yeah, no, that's a great, you know, summary of that whole idea. I think well, I was talking to you earlier before you came on because I was complaining about my Apple watch. So I wanted to know what your like thought on the role of technology with apps, trackers, wearables, like they're everywhere. Are they helpful? Are they complicating things? What do you think?

EC:

I'm sort of a split decision on that. In full disclosure, I'm actually building an app right now, so in some degree, I'm a big fan. But, the benefit of any of these apps and trackers is the ability to change your behavior. Not in the data it collects, or not even the data that it tells you. So, if at the end of the day, Somebody's watch makes them exercise more because they get the badges or the likes or whatever the heck's happening. That was the value of the watch. Not that it told you it burned however many calories, because guess what? It's wrong.

Kerry:

Yes.

EC:

There's even some things out there about like, You know, this is big in the CrossFit community that apps will tell you your recovery in the morning. They'll tell you whether or not you should train or not based on your recovery score. The score is inaccurate. In fact, one of my friends and I, we joke around, he's a PhD in like molecular bio. We joke around that every single day, it should just show the person green, go train because everybody needs to exercise more. There's very few people that are actually over training.

Kerry:

Be a great trick.

EC:

right, right, exactly. And, and it's just like, you know, Who needs to be told to exercise less? You know, the data is just so, of course, you know what I mean, there's some days and exceptions, but you know what I mean. And so this is the problem, is people will start to make incorrect decisions because of the data. This is classic with the continuous glucose monitors. People will be afraid of things like vinegar or bananas because they see a spike. That's a problem. People will think they shouldn't exercise because they're overtrained. They're not. 99. 9 percent of people are not overtrained. So. If the tracker and the app is motivating you to eat more whole foods than not, to exercise regularly, to get more sleep regularly, then it is a value add for you. If you start trending into disordered things like, well, I can't exercise today because it's the third day of my cycle and my recovery score is yellow. No, no, you're, you've been lost in the weeds.

Kerry:

I didn't even know they could do those kinds of things. So that's way beyond whatever app and trackers I'm using, but impressive. So well, good luck on your app of course, but I think you will make it more in tune to behavioral change as you were

EC:

I hope so. That's the goal. We'll see.

Kerry:

So quick questions. What's your favorite fruit or veggie?

EC:

Probably strawberries, but pan fried green beans and butter is a, a strong one. Yeah.

Kerry:

I like green beans anyway. Like the microwavable bag with salt, pepper, olive oil. Sounds great. Yeah. Okay. How about what's the over most overrated nutrition trend?

EC:

Carnivore. I think it's actually healthuh, not healthy, I think it's actually harmful.

Kerry:

Interesting. I have a episode. I don't know, a couple of months ago

EC:

Oh, okay.

Kerry:

diet.

EC:

Okay, I'll have to

Kerry:

a cardiothoracic surgeon. So that's an interesting one.

EC:

Okay, yeah, I'll check that out.

Kerry:

Okay. And I do have a couple of patients who have found me from that and they, you know, I just support them in their carnivore journeys. Absolutely.

EC:

Yeah,

Kerry:

But it's definitely, I love vegetables. I would never do it.

EC:

well, you always have to remember there's so many trade offs. I mean, this is even true with the GLP 1 drugs. It's just sort of like, there is a risk of being overweight. And so if the person is less weight because of the carnivore diet, okay, does that mean they're at an optimal health? In my opinion, no, but I understand that, yeah, taking off 20 pounds, Is a better place to be.

Kerry:

Yeah, well, absolutely. The employment, the inflammation and

EC:

Yeah, exactly.

Kerry:

improved. Yeah. Best nutrition hack for busy families.

EC:

Mm. You know I'm gonna stay on brand. 800 gram challenge. More fruits and veggies. For kids, don't get so worried about the number. Just encourage couple items at each meal of the ones they like. Yeah.

Kerry:

Yeah, definitely. All right. So one piece of advice, I think you're going to tell me what the answer is for people that they can follow today. If they're just starting to prioritize nutrition.

EC:

I mean, you know, I think there's other ways to be healthy besides the 800 gram challenge. But to me, you know, I don't even think we touched on it. I know, I love you. You said short answers, short questions, and here I go. I can't even just I can't just stop and answer one question. But you know, this is according to the USDA statistics, 80 percent of people aren't eating enough fruit, 90 percent of people aren't eating enough vegetables, which ends up being about two cups of fruit a day and two and a half cups of veggies a day. So basically between the two, 90 percent of Americans aren't eating enough fruits and vegetables. Where else are we going to start? Like, you know, I mean, we could do things like drink more water and blah, blah, blah. And like, I don't know, eat, you know, a little more protein, but our protein deficit is. For most people isn't there because they're not active enough to need more protein. So to me, in my opinion, it's like, where else am I going to start now? Sure. If somebody has like a really, really big Coke habit and the first step they want to do, and I mean, Coke, the soda, they really want to switch to, let's say, diet soda as their first step. I'm on board with that too. But when I'm looking at, okay, how am I going to overhaul the diet? I always just go fruits and veggies because there's such a wide range of them and there's such a need for them in a diet.

Kerry:

Speaking about the soda thing, I had a patient who worked at like a gas station. So, you know, like unlimited soda. Right. And I just, I just, I'm like, can you try diet at least? Right. Cause he said he couldn't pop soda. And he lost, I think like 30 to 40 pounds just from that. Kind of amazing.

EC:

Exactly. And that's why I don't want to be too dogmatic about making change. I think sometimes people probably know where they could, I mean, you know, if you're only sleeping four hours a night, okay, let's just get some regular sleep so that you're not so hungry and tired the next day, right? But from like a nutritional, what are we going to look at in the foods in our diet? I'm always going to go fruits and veggies as step one.

Kerry:

Yeah, absolutely. What well, what else did you want to share that we missed or is there anything we need to know?

EC:

I don't think so. I think we covered a lot of, a lot of ground. But I would just encourage people You know, just to get started, I think sometimes, a lot of times, people want to have the most perfect plan. And is this the right perfect number of calories for me? And I haven't talked yet about, you know, seed oils or whatever types of fat. And it's just like, okay, what are you currently doing? Can you have a banana at breakfast? Can you have an apple at lunch? Like, let's just start there and start building that momentum. And then we'll worry about other things down the road.

Kerry:

Which makes a lot of sense because the name of your podcast is called the consistency project, right? So getting started and being consistent is, you know, more important than all the details, right?

EC:

totally. Yes,

Kerry:

So where else can listeners find you, connect with you, explore, optimize, mean nutrition and where can they find you?

EC:

Yeah, that's the website. OptimizeMeNutrition. com. That's the same handle on Instagram then, yeah, you already mentioned the Consistency Project

Kerry:

Perfect. Well, I just want to thank you so much for being on the podcast. It is a super fun conversation. I think I could talk to you for hours and I think our listeners might go crazy with all the questions that I would throw at you, but I really appreciate it and everybody, you know, tune in next week for our next special guest. And this is great. It's coming out, you know, new year timeframe. So I think that would be really helpful for all the listeners too. So thank you.

EC:

Yeah, thank you. It's been a ton of fun.

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Dr. Kerry Reller

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